Curse

arcanemacabre · Mar 15, 2007, 06:55 AM // 06:55

As we all know, each pip of regen/degen is equal to 2 health per second, and there is an imposed 10 pips max. As it is now, regen and degen skills are generally written off as fairly worthless, as are conditions that cause degen. Why is this? Well, at 10 pips, we're only talking 20 health per second. On the surface, it sounds good, but 10 pips is generally difficult to pull off, and in the end can be easily outhealed/outdamaged.

There is also a handful of issues where the regen/degen is too powerful. How, you ask? Simply put, instances where the target has much less than maximum health. This is seen in the 55 monk build, and with skills like Aura of the Lich. In those instances, both regen and degen can be the literal line between life and death, thus, overpowered.

It is often suggested to raise the cap from 10 pips to say, 15-20. This is too much. It's often proven that it would cause regen/degen causing skills, and conditions to become way too powerful. I agree.

I suggest to you all, a solution: each pip of regen/degen implies .5% of your current max health per second, instead of a constant 2hp/second. At 10 max pips, that would equal 5% of your current max health per second. This would mean that no matter the situation, regen/degen will cause consistent damage/healing, no matter the target's current max health.

What do you guys think? What kind of rammifications would something like this cause? Am I missing a perhaps bigger picture with degen/regen? Does it even need fixing?

EDIT: Added in max between "current" and "health", to show what I really meant

FelixCarter · Mar 15, 2007, 07:29 AM // 07:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcanemacabre

As we all know, each pip of regen/degen is equal to 2 health per second, and there is an imposed 10 pips max. As it is now, regen and degen skills are generally written off as fairly worthless, as are conditions that cause degen. Why is this? Well, at 10 pips, we're only talking 20 health per second. On the surface, it sounds good, but 10 pips is generally difficult to pull off, and in the end can be easily outhealed/outdamaged.

There is also a handful of issues where the regen/degen is too powerful. How, you ask? Simply put, instances where the target has much less than maximum health. This is seen in the 55 monk build, and with skills like Aura of the Lich. In those instances, both regen and degen can be the literal line between life and death, thus, overpowered.

It is often suggested to raise the cap from 10 pips to say, 15-20. This is too much. It's often proven that it would cause regen/degen causing skills, and conditions to become way too powerful. I agree.

I suggest to you all, a solution: each pip of regen/degen implies .5% of your current health per second, instead of a constant 2hp/second. At 10 max pips, that would equal 5% of your current health per second. This would mean that no matter the situation, regen/degen will cause consistent damage/healing, no matter the target's current health.

What do you guys think? What kind of rammifications would something like this cause? Am I missing a perhaps bigger picture with degen/regen? Does it even need fixing?

I actually like the idea. It's interesting and would make conditions effect everyone the same, regardless of level, health, etc.

/Signed for this idea.

Azure · Mar 15, 2007, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Cant say for sure but iirc in the the betas they doubled all health and damage to current levels as health degen was way too powerfull (think Conjure Phantasm in Presear).

And aint degen generally easy to spread around, think Apply Poison, Barbed Arrows, Reapers Mark etc, while stacking degen to max on one person is hard, you can easily have close to ~50 degen on the enemy team as a whole.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with the current Degen/Regen system.

Deleet · Mar 15, 2007, 08:11 AM // 08:11

The problem isn't degen. The problem is, that is it easy to counter in the current metagame. LoD + HP > Degen.

arcanemacabre · Mar 15, 2007, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deleet

The problem isn't degen. The problem is, that is it easy to counter in the current metagame. LoD + HP > Degen.

Well, that is true. As Azure said, I think originally degen was a decent threat, and it is easy to just apply it to multiple targets and forget it, which is nice. But now, I think healing and hex/condition removal has become so good, that really only chunk/spike damage can make people sweat.

I think this small, but noticeable improvement to regen/degen would cause it to become a threat again, though. Degen really shines when it can cause constant pressure to lots of enemies, and combined with those other chunk/spike sources of damage, it could be really dire for enemy monks, etc.

Keep in mind, though, the issue isn't just degen, but also regen. Pretty much every regen skill/spell is a joke. The only exceptions really being Troll Unguent (with it's sucky-ass activation time), and Mystic Regen. The only time this is not the case, is with the 55 monk, and a handful of other farming builds.

I'm thinking that this kind of change would not only lend more use to degen hexes/conditions, and regen skills that see little to no use, while simultaneously wiping the game clean of many farming and bot builds. Hmm... sounds almost like a Utopia to me... something must be wrong

FelixCarter · Mar 15, 2007, 09:27 AM // 09:27

As a Monk, I can say that Health Degen really doesn't "make me sweat" as much as Spike Damage does. With the newer Elites that bamf conditions and hexes in the face, and with the large healing spells, Health Degen is something that is more of an annoyance than anything else (at least for me). If this kinda thing was implemented, it would keep me on the edge of my seat more often and keep the game shway.

I'm assuming Health Regen would work the same way though? .5% (or whatever) every pip? If so, then I could see it being more threatening, but the solution to conditions and hexes would remain the same.

Obey The Cat · Mar 15, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Well, but people with less health should be disadvantaged... dunno exactly if your suggestion is good or not.

glountz · Mar 15, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

/signed
But that may overpower regen and skills such as Mystic regeneration when coupled with really high health (like on monks).

MithranArkanere · Mar 15, 2007, 05:27 PM // 17:27

I like it. With the 10 pips... that would be 5% of total health per second...
For a lvl 20 ... 480*5/100 that is 24. Not very far from the 20 of the current system...

This will make the regen/degen independand of level... and definitelly kill the 55 monks...

Good idea.

tenshi_strife · Mar 15, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

/signed but can you say 55 rage lol

but then there will be a new type of farming can you say 600 ing lol

Obey The Cat · Mar 15, 2007, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

This will make the regen/degen independand of level... and definitelly kill the 55 monks...

Well...mending yes.

But degen will be less dangerious for players with lower health. That's something I don't like.

Tarun · Mar 15, 2007, 06:46 PM // 18:46

It may show ten, but it does far more already.

Mitchel · Mar 15, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

/signed, as this would make me laugh at HB even more.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 15, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

It may show ten, but it does far more already.

erm, no?

I don't like the idea to be honest. Degen is very strong already. We've run a degen build with quite good results. Ofcource you shouldn't rely just on the degen to get kills, you need melee as well, but it's obvious it helped a lot. HB/HP's and LoD's make it harder to pull off, but it's still very strong.

Seitheach · Mar 15, 2007, 07:32 PM // 19:32

If it's a percentage of your current health, wouldn't the health degen get less as your health decreases? The longer the condition/hex is on, the less effective it gets. Seems a bit weird to me.

Not A Fifty Five · Mar 15, 2007, 08:03 PM // 20:03

whoops misread post

hmm.. wouldn't this just make degen worse? And it sounds kinda odd, like the above poster. So apparently if you were down to 10 hp you would be almost immune to degen. Sounds kinda weird to never be able to bleed to death.

Tarun · Mar 15, 2007, 08:52 PM // 20:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

erm, no?

I don't like the idea to be honest. Degen is very strong already. We've run a degen build with quite good results. Ofcource you shouldn't rely just on the degen to get kills, you need melee as well, but it's obvious it helped a lot. HB/HP's and LoD's make it harder to pull off, but it's still very strong.

Test it out, do a max degen and cast HB on yourself with +9-10 regen.

arcanemacabre · Mar 15, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Not A Fifty Five

whoops misread post

hmm.. wouldn't this just make degen worse? And it sounds kinda odd, like the above poster. So apparently if you were down to 10 hp you would be almost immune to degen. Sounds kinda weird to never be able to bleed to death.

Ah, true, didn't think of that. Maybe there could be a minimum of 2hp/second? Does seem odd, though. Of course, with that little hp, a simple wand hit or two would dispatch the individual

Also, that means with that low life, regen wouldn't do much, either. I think a flaw in this has definately been spotted, though.

EDIT: And Tarun, there is a max cap of what amount of degen/regen can affect you, but it can go over that, it just won't ever affect more than 10 pips worth.

Thomas.knbk · Mar 15, 2007, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarun

Test it out, do a max degen and cast HB on yourself with +9-10 regen.

yeah, I know about hidden degen. I'm not a noob.
You made it sound like 'it may show 10 arrows but in fact you lose 30 health per second' (that's what I read anyway)

This suggestion would make Healing Breeze the worst skill in the game. In order for HB to have any effect your target needs to be low on health, but if he's low on health healing breeze won't do anything!

Obey The Cat · Mar 15, 2007, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seitheach

If it's a percentage of your current health, wouldn't the health degen get less as your health decreases? The longer the condition/hex is on, the less effective it gets. Seems a bit weird to me.

lol right